On this episode of the Black Belt Business Podcast, we have Easton Training Center's founder Amal Easton, its President and CEO Mike Tousignant and its Vice President Ian Lieberman.

Eliot: We are back with another episode of Easton Online Podcast. Don't forget, if you find these podcasts helpful, enjoyable, informational, anything, please share. Please leave us a comment and a like, all that good stuff. So this episode, we’re back with our every other guest in Mike and Ian and we also have the founder with us, Amal. What's up, guys? How's everyone doing?

Amal: Hey, hey.

Mike: Good morning.

Ian: Hi, everybody. 

Eliot: And sorry about the three mics thing. I guess we have to buy another mic. Just in case we ever have a fourth guest. So just a little housekeeping there. Man, let's talk about the meeting we just did to start. I thought it was productive. I hope it wasn't too much for you guys.

Eliot: We just had a check-in meeting, a vision meeting. I don't know, what would you call that meeting, Mike? 

Mike: Well, I just labeled it what we originally called it – the vision meeting. Yeah, I don’t know if it was that, we didn’t get to the vision point of it. I think what I would call that is a significant improvement from ten years ago. That's what I would call that.

Eliot: Look, let's just describe ten years ago, right? Because I think a lot of people are still in that ten-years-ago space. You try to have a meeting with all your big players. And at the time, we were the only big players, probably, right? Maybe one or two more. Now, there's many more big players, I would say, because I'm not in the day-to-day stuff as much anymore and neither is Amal. So what did 10 years ago feel like for you? And then I'll share like because I think it's just nice for people to see like, ‘Oh shit. Maybe I'm not the only one who can't get this part right right now.’

Mike: I would jump right in and say that I think the key word is structure.

Eliot: But what? What did it feel like? What was it like before? 

Mike: Chaos. 

Eliot: Chaos. What? What was the chaos like? Let's describe it all. 

Mike: The chaos was… no agendas. So the chaos came in like, every Monday we would meet to discuss what the plan was, the vision, where we're headed, blah, blah, blah. But there was no… 

We've all read the books on it but we didn't have any structure in place like we did with our curriculum. And so I feel like we would go in just kind of on a whim and all had different ideas. And for me personally, I wasn't in a place that was that even-keeled, obviously, so it wasn't healthy for me. But it was just sort of chaos, talking about whatever on a whim without really staying to a structured agenda. 

And I think that really just, it was a learning lesson. But yeah, it felt nerve-wracking, I would say. Like for me personally, it was always nerve-wracking, like, am I going to get in a fight with Amal today, or is it gonna be productive?

You know? You never know. Are we going to shoot the shit for an hour and not really get anything done? I know for this meeting today, we haven’t done one in a minute, I made sure to meditate. I had a little rock with me just in case. 

Sometimes, it's from trauma - not that we do that anymore - but, there's trauma in the past from how these meetings used to go. They could flare up and go poorly. So I make sure I come very centered and like ready to listen and be a part of something, whatever direction it goes. Whereas before, I wasn't like that. It was just chaos and on a whim – what's going to happen next?

Eliot: I think the poor end of it, where even the one [meeting] earlier an hour ago could have gone, it's just our deep history with each other. Like we're so… even though we're not personally intertwined anymore, we just have been with each other for as long as we've probably been with our wives. Right? Maybe even longer. When you sit down and have a meeting with your wife, sometimes your spouse, that can be difficult as well. Right? 

Mike: I would say that's probably way harder. 

Eliot: The spouse?

Mike: Yeah. 

Eliot: Oh, yeah, for sure. Always. Yeah. 

Mike: Unless you're the lady from Next. 

(laughter)

Eliot: Yeah. Amal! How did the meetings used to go for you? Like what was your experience like ten years ago when we used to have a meeting? 

Amal: Yeah, way more organized now. We actually get stuff done. We have an agenda. We move through in a clear, organized fashion. I think that the meetings that we were running back in the day, you just kind went by the seat of your pants a lot.

I think about the curriculum and the school. Before you have a curriculum, you walk in and you're just kind of like, okay, it’s a two-step plan: show up and teach class. Teach whatever the hell I want. Then, I think the meetings were very similar. ‘All right, guys, what should we talk about? I don't know.’ You know, and then it would turn into a total Lord-knows-what.

And it was fun to hang out. But that's what we were doing. I think, to be clear, we weren't really running meetings; we were hanging out. 

Eliot: We would hang out. And if it went well, we would probably go to lunch together or train, and if it didn't go well, we would leave mad. Probably is how it went, right? 

Everyone: Yeah

Eliot: Ian, you used to talk about dreading these meetings. 

Ian: Yeah, no, I did. I feel like now I'm much more involved, and [then] I just sort of got in at the tail end of those meetings. And I don't love conflict. And there was always the potential that it could go very poorly and people, like you said, would leave mad.

I think one of the things that is very different, it's the history, it's the structure, and it's also the fact that we have a lot of experience on knowing where they can go wrong and setting up the agreement. So before each meeting, we make agreements with each other, right? So like, for example, assume good intent, no interrupting, so on and so on, but it just gives you a sort of a map.

So there's the agenda, so we stay on topic, but then also just you know where the potholes are and it's easier to avoid them. So my experience back then very much mirrored what everybody else said. And now it's much smoother and more enjoyable and more productive. 

Eliot: We've said this a couple of times. Agreements. You said it, you said it. I don't know if you said it or not. And maybe to some of you listening, it sounds kind of dumb. Like, what do you mean, make an agreement before a meeting? We're not, we're going to meet and we're going to talk. That's what we used to do, right? 

And then Larry gave us this idea. It was Larry, right? Because he was the first one that did it - where we actually, on the whiteboard - and I didn't have a whiteboard today, we had to grab a piece of paper. Where is it… I think it's under here somewhere – it’s on the back of one of those pieces of paper. It's like, flip it, flip it. There they are! So we wrote them down.

When we say “make agreements” – it’s what we’ll all follow. And then you were in charge, Mike, and you would pull the meeting back if we were breaking an agreement, right? 

Mike: Yeah, we choose a leader of the meeting. Whoever the hell it is, it doesn't really matter – a facilitator, if you will. Today was kind of a mix, but I think to your point, a meeting should be structured where what we're doing now is a podcast.

You may have some themes to talk about, but this is the hangout, right? Right. That's the difference between a meeting and a podcast or a hangout.

Eliot: Different purposes.

Mike: Yeah

Eliot: Meetings, you got to move somewhere with them. There has to be like, okay, this, this is what they accomplish. This is the goal we're trying to accomplish with this meeting. And then you go somewhere.

Where this, we're just talking about ideas, right? We're going to talk about a whole bunch of them on a podcast. And like, maybe we flesh them out, maybe we don't. It doesn't really matter. 

Mike: It would’ve been great to have microphones ten years ago, though,

Eliot: It would have, and record it. We should have recorded it. 

Mike: There probably would’ve been better behavior, though, if we had microphones.

Eliot: And recorded it. 

Mike: Oh yeah. 

Eliot: Yeah. Look, I think our biggest agreement, if we're just going to stick on this agreement topic with meetings, is not taking things personally. But sometimes they can really sound very personal when you're critiquing or saying, “Hey, you did this or I did that.”

So how have we developed? And I'm asking you two guys here – this idea of not taking things personally when you're talking to your staff and when you have to critique the staff. And I would like you to compare it with how we used to do it. Like when we used to critique someone this way and they took it very personally, and how do we do it a little better now in meetings and both one-on-one. Ian, you want to handle it first?

Ian: Sure. I would say the core values play a big part here. Compassion and trust, specifically, I think are very useful to keep in mind. And one of the things that we talk about a lot is assuming good intent. I think that's a two way street.

So like, we're not always going to be perfect wordsmiths. And sometimes when we're emotional or we're talking about something that's really important, maybe our words aren't chosen exactly or as precisely as we wish they could have in that moment. But we're always trying to. And that's the key piece. We're always trying to take into account how what we're saying is going to land.

And then on the other side of that, if someone isn't a perfect wordsmith, we always assume that their intentions are good. We're all trying to achieve very similar things. We all want to get across or as close to the finish line as we can. So it's working as a team to do it. And I think the compassion is, when you're giving your feedback or you're stating your opinion, it's doing it in a compassionate way so the person that you're speaking to, it's a lot easier for them to assume good intent. And then on the other side of it, it's trusting. It's trusting that we're all in this together and we're trying to reach a common goal. And that disagreement is a part of it sometimes.

Mike: I think, to solidify it a little bit, I mean, Ian has to have these conversations more than any of us. As far as he runs the general managers and the GMs have to have these a lot. So does Ian.

In my shoes these days, I'm lucky enough to work with the leadership team, so they've already kind of cooked for a long time. So they often catch themselves before we have to respond with a hard conversation or any of that.

But I think Ian, since you do this a lot, I think you had a really good one yesterday that built quite a bit of trust with an individual, and I think that's something that you can kind of touch on because I know sometimes in the past with this individual it's been hard to get them to connect 

Like you’d give them the feedback, and they’d be like “Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay.” Over and over again. “Yeah. Okay.” But you never really saw action or you never knew what was getting through to him. But yesterday you had a conversation that we talked about and it was tension. They gave push-back and you were like, Boom, now we're connected!

Like you finally had that moment with them where they go, “Actually, I want to push back and disagree with you on this,” and whether you agreed with their pushback or not, they finally showed that they were listening, they were standing on their own two feet, and they're being present in the conversation and then they're going to do a better job, I think, moving forward, because they're willing to see what's happening and tell you, “Actually, I think you're wrong.” And then maybe that will translate in how they deal with their staff. 

They’re just not going to be, you know, just go with the flow. And I thought the way you described that yesterday and the trust that came out of that basic tension came out of that and it actually solidified your relationship tighter. Something you said. 

Ian: Yeah, no, I would agree. I would say that being vulnerable is a superpower. And I think it's a big part of this. I think in that moment, it's very hard because it's dynamic. It's like, he reports to me, ostensibly. And so he doesn't, you know, there's always the risk that if you disagree with the person that you're reporting to, it could damage your relationship.

And I think it's being open. It's also just being open to being wrong, like it's being open, having an open mind, being open to the fact that you don't know everything. So when I was in that conversation, I might be wrong, you know, I have my opinions about things, but that might not - so do they. And I think a good relationship – and I think we really foster this at Easton – is communication up and down and it's being vulnerable and admitting that “Hey, I might not actually be right about this.” And I think that openness does build trust. 

And I think trust is, one thing that we know, I'm getting long winded here, but like the one of the words that I always take issue with is the word loyalty, because it almost implies that it's a one way street and that the person, whoever it is – let's say if I'm the person owing loyalty to somebody, that the person who I owe loyalty to, that there's nothing they can do to break that oath of loyalty. 

And I don't agree with that. We were just having a conversation a minute ago about how we have to earn this every day. We have to always be earning our keep. And trust is earned. 

It's like a tree. There's that saying it can take years and years to grow and you can cut it down in a moment. So we're really only as trustworthy as the last conversation we had. We only get to make sense if the last sentences we uttered adhere to reality, and I think that building trust with our team is one of the most important things we can do. And it happens through vulnerability and showing that they can say things without consequence. And we could be wrong.

Amal: If I could jump in for a second, I think the trust and respect – one of the biggest problems people have (and we definitely went through this) is if you don't trust and respect the people that you're sitting with, it's very hard to go through that.

So the first thing is, you know, we happen to all be friends, but I really do believe that everybody here occupies a very important role within our company. They don't overlap so much; we have clearly defined people. So we can sit here and it's a four legged stool. If any of us disappeared then I feel like that stool is super wobbly.

So you can look and say, okay, I need to mind my words because I do actually trust and respect all the people sitting at this table. And I think it's easy to take that for granted when you have that room. And I think if you look around your room and you say, “Do I think that guy's a moron, or do I think that I actually trust and respect him?” That gets built from way back. And that's not an easy task when you're starting a company. 

Eliot: Man. I want to talk about this loyalty thing for a second because you brought it up, and it's such a big theme in martial arts, right? Like, you must be loyal to your school and to your teacher. You hear this all the time, right? You know, do we disagree here or not disagree? 

Everyone: Yeah. 

Eliot: Yeah. And I personally think - and I think we all agree – it's the other way around. I think the loyalty has got to come from the school and the teacher first. It's not like, “Oh, you signed up here. Therefore you must be loyal to us.” It's just wrong.

Like Amal’s gotta — in a way but not so long because it’s been so long - but he’s gotta be loyal to me first as a student. Then we gotta be loyal to you guys first because you were our students, by showing up, providing a good product, providing a good environment, doing all of these things so that the student actually wants to stay and has a reason to be loyal. And this is kind of what we're talking about here. And I just think you get so twisted, you know, 

Ian: It’s like servant leadership, right? It's the idea that we're here to serve. And I feel I think this is one of the best styles of leadership that we're here to serve. You know, to have the students and our team and you guys have always done that.

So when I was talking about that, it's like I feel the same way. I trust everybody at this table implicitly, but I trust you – it’s not this undying loyalty that I feel like I have to show to get your trust. You know what I mean? I think it's based on the people that we try to be and the values that we have. And I think that's the stuff that really matters. 

Eliot: I think sometimes – and this is to all of you here (I know we touch on this topic a lot, especially more with this podcast rather than the Jordan and Phipps podcast) because I think sometimes if this is somebody's first time listening to us, Easton Online, and getting to know Easton, they hear these words, “vulnerable,” “agreements,” “values.” 

And we can just go so into the weeds of this and be like, “Man, these woke motherfuckers,” right? Like “these woke motherfuckers, they have lost the art of beating someone up.” You can just hear that. And because of all of the social media that we hear, depending on what news you listen to and all that shit, how do we tell people? 

I want to talk about what these words really mean. Like, like we're not just vulnerable for like, “Oh, man, you know, I'm feeling really sad today, So can I have a time out, please, and make sure I have my safe space?” Like, what is actual vulnerability? And it doesn't happen every day. But what would you say? What's actual vulnerability, Mike?

Mike: Well to speak to that, like what we're talking about now versus how it came up. One of my favorite songs that I like to listen to or I want to play all the time is “Still Dre”

Eliot: I love that song!

Mike: Yeah. And it's like,yeah, we're the people that are here to conduct ourselves in a professional manner and do these things with the company like talking about core values and vulnerability.  But I mean, we still have that Dre side of us. That still exists. Like we still came from the spot where we were just beating each other up every day. And that didn't just go away, right? But we've learned over the years that there's better ways to do things or we can improve upon those things. That doesn't change. 

That didn’t change part of our foundation, right? We just saw improvements we can make to better serve people. So I always think about that when it's like, when you haven’t been on the mats for a while, it’s like oh no, no, you’re confused.

Eliot: No, that’s a great example because yeah, like we used to, because you have to hold this other end up too. Because, you know – and we talked about this – like you can't have all these values and all these things and then just be a bunch of fucking pussies, right? Like it just can't happen, right? It is unacceptable for us. 

Mike: Amal’s stone-faced. 

Amal: No, no, no, true story. I think about, you know, back when I started Jiu Jitsu in Brazil or when I started here, Renzo was always such a…I looked up to him so much because he was so kind and so accepting, and made you feel like a stud. And at the end of the day, he would whoop anyone’s ass, when push comes to shove that side is there 100%. And that's something that I think especially as we grow, we are constantly (and Eliot thank you for being a driving force in this) make sure – yeah that's important because that's what we do. And if you forget about what you do and get lost in all this bullshit, that's not what we do. 

Eliot: And yeah, the bullshit is important too. Like what you just called the bullshit, but it’s not bullshit right. I hope we're all getting the terms here. It's not. It's really important. It's super important to actually accept and listen to your staff. And let them be able to tell you what they think and then have you not be like, “Okay, cool, let's get on the mat.”

Mike: You can still be – I mean, I'm a big believer of being vulnerable and being a badass. Like for me, a lot of the stuff that drives me is like, what is gonna make me more of a badass? I know that sounds cheesy, but what I mean by that is like, what can I do as a human to be tougher, to be better? What can I face every day to add some struggle in my life?

And that's like, I think you can still have both. And I think the people that are the better – I don’t know why I’m fucking getting sad about this, I’m thinking about my kids – but I think you have to lead from both places. And I think that makes you a stronger company and a stronger person. If you can accept that soft side and still have it when you need it, but still have that - I don’t want to say dark side - but that badass side has to exist. Otherwise in my opinion, you're not a full person, you know, it's like you're, you're halfway there, you're soft and nice and everybody loves you and you're sweet. But then when push comes to us, are you going to run away and back down? Like, are you going to change? I think both the need to exist in my life for me to be the best person I can be – vulnerability and be a badass or tough, if you will. 

Eliot: We're already here. So I'm going to just ask you the question. You and I had a tough conversation a couple of months ago – we argued for a minute. Remember what I'm talking about?

Mike: Yeah, I think it was about an email.

Eliot: Yeah. Something. Something. I don't know. I don't know where it started, but it went there and then we were just talking about what you just talked about, right? Like, this badass side and this vulnerable side. And I just want to ask you a question. You said, and maybe I took it wrong, (we can do that with each other sometimes) that you're trying to crush that bad part of you. And I was like, well, and I pushed back on you, like, I think we can do it better, right? And maybe I didn't express that part super well. We can do that worse, that devilish side, whatever you want to call it, the dark side, the devil, whatever it is, but it still has to exist a little bit. It still does push you. It still is necessary. And I was trying to make that point, and I think that's the point you were just trying to make. Is it? I guess, is my question. 

Mike: Yeah, I think what we're missing is how it is presented to the world. It's where we come into conflict. But I think we both agree with that. Right? The vulnerability is huge. Like, I love my kids, I hug them. You know, I'm a big, big, you know, affectionate person. And I'm also like, okay, where can the pain and struggle come from to make sure I know I'm not just soft, that I'm both. And usually I try to keep those things. They're mine - I hold on to them. 

But I see the advantage when you're in a leadership role to present both sides, because I think it's good for people to have something to look up to. Not that anybody looks up to you, but that idea to hold both, to know that both can exist. And I think for you and me, I think the conflict came up with just how we present it to the world. And I think that was the conversation. And I don't think you disagree. 

Like, I think I can present it poorly and I think you can present it poorly. But I don't think, I think deep down, we both want the same thing. It's just how it comes up. And that's where it came from.

Eliot: And I totally agree with you on that. The be a badass term like, you know, I think it's I think you need to be a badass. I think it's super important. Ian, you want to say something?

Ian: Yeah, but go on.

Eliot: I think it's the Jordan Peterson quote, a little bit. And I know he's super controversial or whatever but what does he say? There's no virtue in not - if you don't have the capability of whooping someone's ass to not whip someone's ass. There's zero virtue in that. You can't fucking do it. So whatever. The virtue is, being able to do it and then controlling that shit, right? So yes, be a be a fucking badass. Be a badass, but then you have to have this other side where it's not just pouring down on people all the time and not just physically beating their ass, but just like mentally putting them down, verbally putting them down emotionally putting them down.

Because, you know, at the end of the day that you can whoop their ass. That's unacceptable, right? That is the not controlling your virtue of being a badass.

Mike: Not being a bully. 

Everyone: Yeah. 

Ian: I'm going to say, to all of your points, I think you guys have all made really good points, but it's like, yeah, being just –  we started off with the question like, why…how does all the value talk and the agreements and all the other things that like, you know, in a very like facetious way you classify it as being woke, right? How does that intersect with what we're actually doing, which is learning how to fight and be tough and all those things? I don't think it does, right? I don't think… they're not mutually exclusive.

And I've always felt that the people who I admire the most are the people who, you know, like you just said, have the ability, but are the nicest and most – that's what made me love this place right in the beginning. It's like I remember, you know, all the fights and the bad behavior that I was a part of in my early twenties, and even before –

Eliot: And you're saying without us, right?

Ian: Without you – before Jiu Jitsu – was all done out of insecurity. And I want to point out that insecurity is visible. So when you, and I think this goes to all of us, it's like when we're behaving a certain way, before we behave a certain way, ask yourself, what are your real motives? Why you're going to do whatever it is you're going to do. And a lot of it is insecurity. It's like, why do we need loyalty? Why do we need people to bow to us? Because there's something…it's validation, right? And the people who are most confident, the people who really are strong, are the ones who can be vulnerable.

So it goes all the way back to this vulnerability piece. I've always viewed people who can be really open, who can admit to being wrong, the people who can apologize first – those are the true strong people. And one of the things that I've always been proud of at Eastern and Jiu Jitsu in general is you take people who come in off the street and you can see it a mile away.

It's insecurity masquerading around as bravado. And then Jiu Jitsu crushes that. It breaks down and gets rid of that fake confidence and builds up real confidence, which is why you see people come in who have been in fights their whole lives, and not everybody, but there is certainly an archetype. Somebody comes in, they've been in fights, they're insecure, they learn how to do Jiu Jitsu, and they never get into an altercation ever again outside of the academy.

And it's because they have the confidence now. They don't need to be validated, you know. And so I think like all of the values that we're talking about connect to this, you know, and it's not even that they're not mutually exclusive. They're actually like, this is all – the more you do Jiu Jitsu, the tougher you become, the more genuine confidence you have, the more vulnerable you can become. In my opinion. 

Eliot: I mean, I'll just speak for me. It didn't come for me for a little bit until I you know, I got good. I got very good. If you watch that one reel that my editor edited, that made me sound like I was like the best in the world, which it's funny what editing can do – I was like, Goddammit, take that down. 

I had to then break a little bit afterwards. I had more work to do after becoming very, very good at the martial art. And then I could start to push through some of the barriers, but I would still say it's Jiu Jitsu, even though it took a little longer, like my arc took way longer and it's still something that I know I have to work on. 

We were just talking about it a second ago in our meeting. Like in a situation where what you were saying, just to back up what you were saying Ian, an event was happening and I was talking about this anxiety that I get and I was already in the middle of some bigger anxiety in general. And I'm like, man, and I start to, like, show up to this thing where I know everyone's going to be there. And I'm like, God, and I know what the other side looks like. 

I knew, you know, what you were saying, Like this, this bravado, this bullshit, this being an asshole a little bit, this bully-ish kind of thing. And I get all this anxiety about being that, but that all really is just my own personal insecurity and bullshit, that I then have to work on so that that's what it all does and that's what we're here to do.

So if we can't use the actual words insecurity, vulnerability, agreements, values, because that's what we're talking about, then it's really hard to implement them and put them into our businesses and actions. It was just a thought. Amal, for you, because you I mean, I like to break terms down and I like to break generations down like this, personally.

If you knew Renzo before he came to Brazil, you're an O.O.G. Okay. If you knew Renzo – I’m sorry, before he came to America. Okay. If you knew Renzo at the Blue Bay, at the methadone clinic, if that was your first introduction to Renzo, you're an O.G. And if you're a blue basement, then you're just a G. Okay, so you're an O.O.G. I’m an OG, you’re an O.O.G.

What does all this feel like to you as you watch, like, the landscape of the company of Jiu Jitsu in general, what does it feel like to you as it changes? Because I mean, you were at the very, very, very beginning and now, man, it's just so different to watch Jiu Jitsu schools, to see the level of some Jiu Jitsu schools, to see different kinds of Jiu Jitsu schools, because there wasn't different kinds of Jiu Jitsu schools when you started, right? There was just a Jiu Jitsu school. 

Amal: The evolution has been wild to watch. And I think it goes in all kinds of different directions. You hear a lot of people talk about – in Portuguese, they call it Nutella or how people are getting soft in America. They talk about how it's becoming like karate or something like that.

And I don't think any of that is necessarily true. But I think that that's an important thing to pay attention to. I think that the schools in Brazil, I think that they didn't necessarily try to make sure you stayed. You had to have a certain metal to be able to stay within the school. That doesn't mean everybody in the school was super tough.

Some people are not that tough, but they're mentally strong enough just to not leave. And they got tough. So I think that's a constant struggle that everybody sees as we grow because we're trying to grow and influence a lot of people in a positive way. And we're trying to do that in such a way that it makes them stronger humans.

And so that's always a delicate balance and we always talk about that a lot. So, you know, I think that I hope that answers the question. 

Eliot: Yeah. And like, man, there's a couple of things that you said, and we talked about this in the meeting, this idea of creating the metal in people still, right? Because, I mean, let's be clear what we're doing. We're trying to grow. And when you hear that word, everyone goes, oh, those guys want to get rich, right? Those guys want to get rich. They want to sell Jiu Jitsu like McDonald's sold hamburgers, you know, and make a fuck ton of money and still have it be a hamburger, you know, Same thing with Jiu Jitsu. Yes?

And I don't think that was our first goal at all. I think our first goal in this growth thing was to – I don't know, you tell me if I'm wrong here – to have someone be able to do this thing that they love for a career, not just this job that they do when they're 20, and then what? And then like, have to grow up because they had two kids or they need a house or want to start a business or or whatever it is like, and then have to go get a real big boy job or a big girl job because, you know, this doesn't this doesn't cut it. I would say that was probably one of our first motives.

But to do that, you need money. But we also don't want to lose the metal of where Jiu Jitsu was founded. Mike, this was a big thing for you. I remember, right? Like you came back from Costa Rica  – was it Costa Rica or Puerto Rico?

Mike: Puerto Rico, maybe. 

Eliot: Emily was pregnant. 

Mike: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was that. It's a precarious balance we have to walk, right? Because, I mean, all of us in this room and plenty of others in the old school, we came up competing, we came up training hard every day. Probably not the best technique always, but that was it, right?

Like just training as hard as possible all the time. And that was how we knew Jiu Jitsu. And we still – we talked about this in the previous meeting – there still needs to be that everywhere. That still should be a big part of Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai, right? But we don't do Muay Thai the way we used to do it where people are getting knocked out at sparring practice anymore. It’s tech sparring, sometimes people go hard and you balance it back. But I think we've learned in general that is not the way to train Muay Thai right, or in MMA, you don't see that anymore.

Eliot: Well they don't do it in pro sports, right. Pro sports don't do this – like the NFL doesn't line up, shortens your career. 

Mike: Yeah. And that doesn't take away the toughness. It just adds some longevity to your career, in my opinion, and you can still be a badass. Anyways, I’m getting off topic. But that part is still extremely important to Easton. Without that, we aren't Easton, we aren’t anything. But what makes us different is the careers, right? 

That is what really sets us apart. Ian talked about this previously earlier today too. Like a lot of schools exist. A lot of schools exist where you can be a teacher, you can be a high-paid teacher, you can teach private lessons, but how are we really developing our staff to actually have a career with us for a long term?

And if we wanted to do it just to make money, we wouldn't have created HQ positions, program director positions that help run each department. We wouldn't have department heads and front desk, first impression specialists and then academy operations, because we have areas that can focus on one thing so we can still focus on our martial arts being the best. But also these other areas can focus on people developing themselves in their career. So we've created a lot of fucking positions for a company our size, like alot. And we sacrifice money for that.

Eliot: Let's be clear, we all profit share here, right? 

Mike: Yeah we all profit share here.

Eliot: The four of us. So we all profit share. We would make way more money without some of these positions and we don't. 

Mike: Yeah, because it's not about that – it was like when we decided to make this happen, we talked about like, okay, where we're at now, it's like maybe five, six, seven, six years ago, like I'm okay with this amount my money now for a long time, and we can stay that way and not worry about it.

And we've grown significantly since then, but haven't added too much more, much money, if any money at all, to our pockets because we wanted to take it to grow towards the careers in the staff. 

Eliot: So towards our personal pockets, you say? 

Mike: Yeah, yeah. It hasn't been about that. It's been about how can we keep people here, how can we develop them, how can we give them careers? And that comes through lots of extra work. We just signed a new lease in Lowry and that's a lot of work. 

And to be honest, like as individuals, we don't actually need that place, but we need it for Easton – we need it for the team, we need it for the people. And that's why all this exists. That's why Easton Online came about, like, how can we give our staff careers outside of teaching if they want it? And not everybody’s gonna get it. It's getting harder and harder to get those careers because more and more people are seeing it and they're working harder and people with just more capacity are taking advantage of it. 

And it's getting harder and harder to get a career in Easton, but it's making us better and better on so many scales. So this whole thing of careers is something that we really, really are passionate about and that's what's changing Easton and that's what's created these systems.

It's just been a process of necessity and it's built us into a more refined machine and we're just going to keep fucking improving, and we're going to keep getting better. 

Eliot: I think about the Steve Jobs book because I just got done with the book like a month ago. The big takeaway for me was his word in Apple - “Think different.” Think different – move the industry, make it different, don't just do it how everyone else does it.

And I think a really big thing with us and look, when you think different, you're going to have some misses, right? You're going to be like, oh, wow, that wasn't good. And it moves it a little farther over here and then you've got to recover and then you're just going to move it farther over and you got to recover.

So I mean, that's a big thing with this too, right? Like when you have a larger company, when you have a larger school or even when you have a smaller school and there's like these little clicks that start, you see that happen, right? The click moves the school way, and then these other groups come in, right? I’m sure you've seen it over the years, right?

You know, you got to be able to move and adjust with those things. It's not the end of the world either way. And it shouldn't be. The idea is, can you stay in the game? Can you keep fighting the good fight and adjust to make it better? Don't give up.

Mike: Pay attention. Yeah, it's like parenting. It's like having a relationship. If you give up, if you quit on it, whether it's parenting, your relationship, your friendships, maybe a sport you're into. Once you back away to sort of let things just be the way they are, it's gonna start going south, right? You can't stay with the status quo forever, because if you stay with the status quo, eventually it'll be below the status quo, in my opinion. Everything we do, whether it's the parenting, running the schools, hiring people, we learn and we implement it and we always try to improve.

And yeah, there's some things that you got to learn from like, man, that's not how I do it. But the younger generation has this way and I'm going to accept it. You know, there's a lot a lot to it that goes into all these things. And I think for me, when I look at it, it's like you just keep paying attention. Just keep paying attention. For me, that’s the biggest thing. 

Amal: Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I think that that has been since the roots of Jiu Jitsu, you know, like the Jiu Jitsu that Helio practiced was not the Jiu Jitsu that he learned from wherever he learned it. And it is not the Jiu Jitsu that he taught. And the Jiu Jitsuwe do today is not the Jiu Jitsu necessarily that we'll be doing in ten years. And I can say the same thing for our operations manual for every single thing we do in our business. If you're not paying attention and you're just taking things for granted, you are not keeping up with the times. That's what makes it fun, that's what makes it exciting, that's what makes it worth doing. And that's what makes it hard. 

Eliot: This idea, “this is how we've always done it,” – it's cockamamie to me in the sense of like, if this is how we've always done it, then we'd still be like, what, like riding horses across the country. It's these people that have said, “Think differently” along the way, right? Like the Jobs quote again. That's what has moved the industry. That's what has moved society. That's what's pushed us. And that's what we always need to be doing. Like with our schools, we need to think a little different.

We need to hold on to what was good from that, – like, we're not, when you watch Jiu Jitsu now everyone goes, “Oh, the Jiu Jitsuof today, man.” No one's giving their back up. No one's like, “Hey, take my back and then I'll start,” you know. No! right? You're saying, and you love this term, these are the first principles, right? These are first principles. I'm going to move from first principles. I'm going to try to think differently while including those first principles and going from there. 

Mike: I like that a lot. Just fundamentals, foundations. Amal can speak to this, this is what I think started the path for Easton. I think his decision maybe with Almeda and some others, to change the way you look at training in Jiu Jitsu.

I think that was what changed Easton originally to start looking at things differently. And Amal walks this weird path anyway. Like having him behind us, I think is a big part of it. Like who the fuck moves to Brazil at 26 to try to start actually this martial art and lives on the other side of the river that he has to take a boat to shore every day, right? Without speaking the language, with an acupuncture degree. Like who does that? 

And then comes back to America and figures out how to change it into – because he wants to teach and then boom, all of a sudden, it's not just that, he's like, okay, I did what I wanted to do, but it's still not right. I want to change the way we shape training.

So we're going to create a fundamentals program with a stripe system that stops you from training to a certain point. Like every little iteration, the seeds that he planted along the way, I think, gave us the opportunity to do these things to create iterations. 

Eliot: God, as much as you might annoy me sometimes with the way that you do it, I'm like, “Man, it could be no other way.” And I'm saying jokingly, annoy me. Like he could be no other way, because that made me think different, right? 

That made all of us think different in a sense of like, okay, let's make it better. Let's not just do what they said, let's move a little bit. I'm going to see if I can always change my salad, even though this is the salad that's on the menu. Like this is just how you roll naturally, you don't have to think to do it. And I think it's just a credit to the personality, I guess, in a sense of, yeah.

Mike: Ian and I went to dinner last night, we got the scallops. It was $46 a plate. We were like, Let's try these, they look good, it was something light and everything else with steak. And I ate one. And I couldn't eat more. And then Ian ate two and we had to send it back, we just couldn't do it. I've never done that in my life, it was so bad. And I think the chef was trying to be creative, they put like blueberry juice on the scallops and they were purple, but there’s a time when it goes too far.

Eliot: Ian, you said that dinner was terrible. 

Ian: Yeah, it wasn't very good.

Mike: We had the best waitress that we’ve had in our life, she was amazing.

Eliot: All right, guys. I think that's a good spot. Call it sauna time? Mike was challenging Ian earlier, so we're going to see how this goes. Ian's ready to die. If you guys know Ian, will die for the Lieberman honor sometimes.

Mike: It’s just a challenge, if you want something to happen - if you doubt his mettle, if you will.

Eliot: So as always guys, go check us out at Easton Online. We have a ton of free information on there where you can get some of our guides on how we intro classes, how we do sales. But go to Easton.Online, get our free stuff. 

These podcasts are everywhere that you listen to podcasts. Shout out to Phipps as we've been mentioning, he always does a great job with the editing. He keeps me from doing it on my computer. I always say I want to do it on my computer, and Phipps just looks at me and shakes his head and gets mad at me.  You do that too Mike?

Mike: No, he's doing that to me these days too. 

Eliot: Yeah, right. You're like, Dude, I just bought this nice camera, and Phipps is like, “No, I'll do it better.” And I'm like, “No” and I bring it up every meeting, like he should just let me. And every time I bring it up, every time I'm wrong, and every time Phipps does a great job. So shout out to Phipps.

Mike: I don't think he trusts us, that’s what it is. You don’t assume trust. [joking]

Amal: It's hard when you just know better. Sometimes you gotta keep quiet with that know-better, but sometimes you just know better. 

Mike: He knows better.

Eliot: So, yeah, go check out @easton_online on Instagram. We are all on social media. I think we all put some pretty different and interesting content out. You know, Amal travels all over the place, so that is his content. Mike is all about these running things these days. So Mike has a great running blog going on his social media. Ian shares and likes a lot of things.

Ian: And I post pictures of my German shepherd and my golden retriever and that’s about it.

Eliot: And yeah, I'm definitely a different flair. So, find one of us, if you like one of us, and go check it out. And obviously we are always here to help. Please reach out with anything that you might need and hopefully if we don't have the answer, we will find the answer. Go out there. Crush your schools everyone. Thanks for tuning in.